sacrifice

topic posted Thu, June 5, 2008 - 5:45 AM by  Sidhu
Have any of you ever seen the animal sacrifice duri Kali Puja? Pls explain the same with your feelings like whether it is wrong or right or you enjoyed it or not etc.
posted by:
Sidhu
India
  • Re: sacrifice

    Thu, June 5, 2008 - 10:33 AM
    Each animal including the human is symbolic of aspects of the self that should be sacrificed to her in order to be liberated.
    • Re: sacrifice

      Thu, June 5, 2008 - 2:04 PM
      No, I haven't seen it, but I have an opinion anyway... :)
      I'm not sure if I would use terms like right/wrong, but personally I would find animal sacrifice useless and pointless (then again I am not Hindu either and I am a vegetarian, so take that however you will). Religious traditions are very culturally ingrained and vice versa. It's important to understand what is important to one's spirituality and what is actually important to the culture and the time. Some religious practices and beliefs do nothing more than serve class/race issues and others are pure superstition, it's the seeing thru that cultural ignorance (meaning unchallenged thought, not stupidity) that is ultimately important. But everyone has to determine that individually.
      I'm very interested in seeing how others respond to this thread.
      • Re: sacrifice

        Thu, June 5, 2008 - 3:56 PM
        I have witnessed bali. I see nothing wrong with animal sacrifice. they get a clean death, are offered to Ma and eaten. no problem. I can't really see a better way for an animal to be slaughtered. the question of whether animals should be eaten period is IMHO it's own topic of personal morality and is outside the realm of Shaktism.
        • Re: sacrifice

          Fri, June 6, 2008 - 4:23 PM
          I think that most people who worship in the mode of the Pashu take certain offerings too literally and do not see the esoteric meaning in animal and human sacrifice. But then again that's just my two cents. If you really want to worship physically and you really want to please Maa, there's no better way then offering your own blood and not the animal for the sake of your own benefit. It's selfish to take lives for pujas especially for benefit, in my opinion, and like everything it has it's karmic repercussions.
          • Re: sacrifice

            Fri, June 6, 2008 - 5:39 PM
            I think that while what you are saying has some truth, it is also a mistake to take things too *symbolically* as well. not just on this issue but on many. the panchamakara for example, while symbolizing other things, is also meant literally - taking a position at either end of the spectrum is missing out on the whole picture. anyway, the goats get slaughtered pretty quickly and don't suffer. they were destined for dinner anyway, they might as well be prashad! in any case, I think for most people, pure dakshinamarga is not enough; the collision between the self and experiences which are threatening or uncomfortable is needed. it is a lot different to talk about sacrifice than it is to see it. I didn't know how I would feel about many things on Kali Puja at Kalighat - the ritual slaughter of the goats, the corpses laid out at the smashan, etc... for me, Shaktism needs no reform. I am of the opinion that if I felt any of these practices were vile or in error, it would not have been my way. my fiancee is a vegetarian and not Hindu, and she was very comfortable with bali after she witnessed it. there is a wonderful connection with the cycle of life inherent in such a day. life! the surge of humanity, baking in the sun! the joy of people to see and be seen by Mother! death! the end of animals' lives, and what remains when we too have been laid to rest! flowers, smoke, blood, singing, the sweat of thousands of people... we're all just living and dying, being born and getting old. I can't put into words the sheer magnitude of that feeling of connection to all living things. we are all meat for the Mother, sacrifices to Her glory, part of the big majestic wheel of this dirty, bloody, beautiful creation.

            JAI MA!
            • Re: sacrifice

              Sat, June 7, 2008 - 10:12 AM
              I agree. I am just presenting that many scriptures have deep esoteric meanings when they describe animal sacrifice and human sacrifice. There are three modes of worship, that of the Pashu or herd animal approach which is worshipping with physical elements, the VIra or heroic approach which is purely mental, and the Divya or Divine mode that is transcendent of mental and physical worship. You can sacrifice the animal or the human or use the panchamakara in all three ways. It just depends on what level you are on, and how you interpret the methods the scriptures give based on your level of development. All three methods are effective.
              • Re: sacrifice

                Sat, June 7, 2008 - 10:14 AM
                And likewise worship and Sadhanas can be as crude or as subtle as the person performing it. People and their actions are on varying levels of crudeness and subtleness. The *lighter* you become and the further away from crude existence you travel the more subtle your actions become.
            • Re: sacrifice

              Thu, August 7, 2008 - 7:49 PM
              ". . . . .we're all just living and dying, being born and getting old. I can't put into words the sheer magnitude of that feeling of connection to all living things. we are all meat for the Mother, sacrifices to Her glory, part of the big majestic wheel of this dirty, bloody, beautiful creation."

              perfection

              Amber
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: sacrifice

            Fri, June 6, 2008 - 11:44 PM
            >If you really want to worship physically and you really want to please Maa, there's no better way then offering your own blood and not the animal for the sake of your own benefit.<

            yepyep! i reckon sacrifice of something other than self [or anything seen as an attachment] is only representative. offering up a proxy is pretty fainthearted. and i'm not sure how fond Kali is of ritual and pretense.
            i went to Kalighat last year, but at a time of day when she was veiled. the sacrificial square was empty; bleak and stark.
            the ambiance in the neighbourhood was heavy thick like a dreamstate that evaporated as i walked back to the trainstation. all the people were so quiet and contained.. so different to the rest of the city.. i was surprised when a stallholder took the conch shell i was looking at and blew it.. and timid when he gave it to me to try. but my bastard father wouldn't give me the time to be wanton so i felt like a total fool not buying it after the demonstration [i went with the intent of stocking up on as much iconography as i could :D but walked away without a single thing. lame! but for those who haven't been, the few blocks leading to the temple are loaded with market stalls in Kali's honour] so anyway i wonder if days around the Kalighat are always like that, or if it was because Kali was sleeping or doing whatever she does in her private time. i'll probably go at the same time next time just to see. and so i don't see the sacrifice again!
            • Re: sacrifice

              Sat, June 7, 2008 - 2:02 PM
              I think you should see it either way - just to see if you are comfortable with it. but that's just my opinion. anyway, the area is more lively on Saturdays and Tuesdays. there are also schedules for when you can receive darshan - there are two windows during the day that you can see Ma, we went just slightly late right before we left Kolkata and missed darshan by like 7 people.
              • Unsu...
                 

                Re: sacrifice

                Sat, June 7, 2008 - 7:46 PM
                i agree. i guess i want to see the rite fulfilled wholeheartedly at least.
                see i saw a photo of a sacrifice taking place, and the man holding down the goat was looking into the camera.. which seems kinda senseless or mindless.
                • Re: sacrifice

                  Sat, June 7, 2008 - 7:58 PM
                  I dunno, if someone was snapping photos maybe I'd look too! hehe. when we were there they weren't letting anyone take any photos - at Dakshineshwar a woman got kicked out by armed guards because she tried to take photographs in the courtyard. so who knows? I think because of the bombing in Varanasi before we went the mandirs were all really paranoid. are you in India?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Re: sacrifice

                    Sat, June 7, 2008 - 8:07 PM
                    no. i was in Goa a few months and my dad kicked me out.
  • Re: sacrifice

    Sun, June 8, 2008 - 1:25 AM
    I think the animals being sacrificed are treated more humanely than in an abbatoir. Then again their souls go to Her- which is a blessing for them. I find it extremely funny and foolish that people who eat animals killed for food oppose animal sacrifice to Gods and Goddesses.

    The Ultimate sacrifice I believe, is of oneself- ones ego, desires, self - to say that you alone are important -Mother, and everything else is less important or not important to me. This is more difficult and may take many lifetimes to complete.

    Om Namaschandikayai.
    • Re: sacrifice

      Sun, June 8, 2008 - 3:15 PM
      You don't know if these people eat animals.
      • Re: sacrifice

        Mon, June 9, 2008 - 9:10 AM
        I know entire organisations of people who do- and they only oppose sacrifices because they consider it a superstition. I am NOT referring to PETA here- I respect them, their cause and their commitment.
        • Re: sacrifice

          Wed, July 30, 2008 - 5:52 AM
          Actually, I've seen Maa in dream and she was asking me for my own blood. She wanted my sacrifice. I'm agreed for my own sacrifice but in this modern era, who will dare to sacrifice me to Maa Kali? If any one has any solution, pls mail me to sidhu167@hotmail.com
          • Re: sacrifice

            Wed, July 30, 2008 - 9:02 AM
            Sidhu,
            You can sacrifice yourself to Her without spilling any blood. Remember, bereft of our illusions, desires, aspirations,likes, dislikes and the like we are nothing but Her. Sacrifice all those things which define you as distinct from her- that is upasana, that is sacrifice- ultimately that is the path to bliss. Is is difficult too as it is to be done in every moment.

            Every person's mind plays tricks. Do not take dreams literally. See if you can divine the inner meaning.

            Jai Maa Kali.
    • Re: sacrifice

      Thu, July 31, 2008 - 10:56 AM
      When I sacrificed a goat at Kalighat in Kolkata, India, I was told by the priest that the soul would stay with me not go to Kali.
      • Re: sacrifice

        Thu, July 31, 2008 - 11:51 AM
        > I was told by the priest that the soul would stay with me not go to Kali.
        *****
        That sounds like marketing to me, the idea you could possess the soul of another being, like you're getting something for the money you spent on the sacrifice.
      • Re: sacrifice

        Thu, July 31, 2008 - 9:15 PM
        In other words- you are going to be haunted by the soul of the goat ?
        • Re: sacrifice

          Fri, August 1, 2008 - 1:58 AM
          Well...he explained it as being protected by the goatghost. Which was an extra since the ritual already was a blessing for me and my family of Kali.
          • Re: sacrifice

            Fri, August 1, 2008 - 9:31 AM
            > he explained it as being protected by the goatghost.
            *****
            "Included in your goat sacrifice fee – all at no additional charge – is a lifetime's worth of protection by the goat ghost!"

            I wouldn't put much stock in the powers of the goat ghost, but have every confidence that your belief in the goat ghost is all that is necessary to provide the desired "protection."
            • Re: sacrifice

              Fri, August 1, 2008 - 10:44 AM
              Somehow it doesn't seem very enlightened - enslaving a goat ghost. I mean even conceptually. Quite apart from how useful a goat ghost might be (not very - no opposable thumbs for one thing), doesn't it imply ownership of essentially someone/something's jiva? Impossible from the viewpoint of nonduality, surely? From my point of view impossible anyway, but I'm interested to know how the notion gets squared with the theological/philosophical precepts - same goes for siddhas that promise power over others.
              • Re: sacrifice

                Fri, August 1, 2008 - 10:47 AM
                sorry - should have written 'siddhis.'
                • Re: sacrifice

                  Fri, August 1, 2008 - 11:37 AM
                  >> "When I sacrificed a goat at Kalighat in Kolkata, India, I was told by the priest that the soul would stay with me not go to Kali."

                  I was responding to this statement in my first post.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: sacrifice

                    Thu, August 7, 2008 - 8:16 PM
                    I too find the idea of a spiritual goat slave to be rather silly.

                    what is wrong with just giving thanks for dinner?
          • Re: sacrifice

            Fri, August 1, 2008 - 11:23 AM
            from my pov, which the judges may not agree with :)

            the karma of taking the life of the goat is now entangled with yours and your responsibility to work it all out in this life or another, a complicated matter, and not easily summed up in a few words...but, as Kali Ma eats our karma, if we offer it to Her wholeheartedly through proper puja, then it will all work itself out. of course i'm not recommending anyone try this at home : )
            • Re: sacrifice

              Fri, August 1, 2008 - 11:31 AM
              as to the main idea of this thread, sacrifice as it is being discussed here is in its crudest or gross form of offering... not needed in this age by any means, Imo.. there is an abundance of collective karma for all of us to work off in this age already, we need no more goat sacrifices, human sacrifces or any gross form of sacrices, we need to sacrifice our egos, greed, jealousy, thoughts, emotions, etc.

              Time to evolve dear ones...

              ~Om Shanti
  • Re: sacrifice

    Fri, August 1, 2008 - 1:56 PM
    I visualize myself as Chhinnamasta. In that way I am the sacrifice to my Devi. Bliss.

    To answer the original question, I haven't seen the animal sacrifices to Ma except on film. I intend to go to Kalighat so I will see them for real at some point. I'm sure it has heavy significance in context. Personally I don't think the death of animals is necessary to appease or please Ma: She isn't a person or a thing with appetites or emotions. She is us. So if we are horrified by the slaughter, then She is too. Similarly if we are gratified by it, so is She. For me, the ambiguity makes it senseless.

    Anyway our lives have sacrifice built into them: we die. Better to find ways to turn that short life into a hymn of giving ourselves up to Her, to simply being Her; make joyful offerings of ourselves every day and dance like Shri Chhinnamasta.
  • Re: sacrifice

    Fri, August 1, 2008 - 2:03 PM
    There is animal instinct in each human unless attained divinity, We have to sacrifice our animal instinct not the animal.
    • Re: sacrifice

      Fri, August 1, 2008 - 8:25 PM
      You are right. However, we should all not indulge in group think. Sacrifice is OK at one stage, but not OK at another. In other words, ones practice changes between Pashu, Vira and Daiva bhavas. There is no such thing as one size fits all in upasana or mantra sastra.
    • Re: sacrifice

      Sat, August 2, 2008 - 8:17 AM
      > There is animal instinct in each human unless attained divinity,
      *****
      Divinity is not attained, it is recognized as being an always existent inner truth. You don't get divine, you recognize you've always been divine, even while you've been your most base and animal-like. The animal in us doesn't get in the way of the divine, it merely distracts us from seeing that we've always been divine.

      > We have to sacrifice our animal instinct not the animal.
      *****
      We have to sacrifice the idea that we need to be anything other than what we are right now, which will always be animals with language skills that happen to be divine at the origin of their awareness.
      • Re: sacrifice

        Tue, August 5, 2008 - 9:04 PM
        Actualy, I saw in my dream that Maa was standing infront of the chopping block or sacrifice block, swords in her hand and calling me for sacrifice. This may be nightmare or Maa really wants this.
        • Re: sacrifice

          Fri, August 8, 2008 - 2:59 AM
          Dear Sidhu,
          Most dreams are NOT to be taken literally. Sacrifice your "self" - your ego to her. She will be more pleased than if you merely sacrifice your body.

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