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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Mon, March 17, 2008 - 2:51 PMCauses are for subjects and objects. Ma is way past that. -
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Mon, March 17, 2008 - 5:01 PMAye, but there must have been some sort of reason behind a physical manifestation...
The only story I know of that mentions Kali 'coming to be' is when Durga was fighting the Demon Mahish and his army... Kali was said to 'spring' from Durga's third eye as a manifestation of her rage. This is only a myth I know though... I'm sure other people will have much better answers than that!
Kali has always been, always will be... we only have stories to explain what otherwise we couldn't possibly. -
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Tue, March 18, 2008 - 11:39 AMThanks Erika. my info is near to yours. Maa Parvati departed from her body to fight with Demon Shumbh & Nishumbh and brightness remain in her original one and and departed body was black. whatever the myth I ve heard is this. -
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Tue, March 18, 2008 - 11:41 AMLila ~ Divine play
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Tue, March 25, 2008 - 1:07 AMhi, Vijaya --
Maha Kali is a form of the Mother, the Parashakti, who, as Jody mentions, is beyond cause-and-effect.
this particular form of the Mother comes into being as a result of all the divine characters -- the devatas, the rishis, the angels, the avataras, EVERY divine soul in this creation -- merging their consciousnesses in order to create a form of the Shakti that can kill the worst negativity on the planet.
so, She comes as Kali to destroy the horrible rakshasa, to restore balance in the creation, to reinstate dharma.
She has to be super-fierce in order to be MORE fierce than the fierce negativity.
that's my understanding.
Alx -
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Tue, March 25, 2008 - 10:40 AMNeti Neti(No it is not what you see).......... It is true., what one( I ) see is not correct. Thanks for enlightenment. -
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Thu, March 27, 2008 - 2:42 AMAlx that is so incredibly right on in so many ways thank you for your insight.
Alx: and of course anyone else here who would like to discuss this.
Are we not in and on the brink of a great destruction
in the age of the Kali Yuga... hmmmmmmm
A Vision or thesis
What if Kali (and other Nine of Ten Mahavidya's) are here in the physical as a humans right now and many other reincarnates who did battle with the rakshasas then to deal with the equivalent rakshasas -demons now?
something to keep in mind, it was always the female gods who conquered the demons the male gods were unableconquer to in Hindu holy books. Perhaps that is what needs to happen today- in this age of Kali Yuga- the women Goddess may have to once again overcome the male demon.
thoughts please because of seeing this could be a -
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali? oops cont.
Thu, March 27, 2008 - 2:53 AMgain overcome the male demon(s)
thoughts please. want to share that this time, it is some sort of seeing that's happening in the moment. -
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali? oops cont.
Thu, March 27, 2008 - 9:45 AMIn eastern world u will find more and more female leaders. Benezir Bhutoo, Soniya Gandhi, Indira Gandhi, Svita Bhandar Nayake, Jayalalita, Mayyavati, Vasundhara Raje, who are effective in respective fields and they reached to the top.
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Thu, March 27, 2008 - 2:22 PMhi, Tushita --
well, it's true that the opposite polarities do impact one another. there are many stories of male devatas coming to destroy female demons, like Ayappa.
in terms of the destruction phase of Kali Yuga -- yes, of course, look around you -- it's an horrendous time on this planet, when the crap is neck-deep and humanity is drowning in its own egoism, greed, cruelty, etc. (these are the qualities embodied by the demons.) we are pushing and pushing and pushing the limits -- just like the rakshasas in the Vedic stories.
and yes, of course -- OF COURSE -- that's bringing the Mother Divine, as Maha Kali -- in full fierce rage, ready to do battle with the extreme negativity of this planet, and the karmic backlog this whole yuga has produced. of course.
one of the real inner messages of the Mother, in particular, being the only one to defeat the male demons, is that She has really come to kill the Kama (desire) that has run amok and is making them do all the crazy negative stuff that they're doing. Mother is the right character to destroy the negative effects of kama.
at the same time, Kali Yuga is an incredibly easy time to connect to the Mother Divine (and the god energy, in general) because everything is SO negative and extreme and material, the divine is more easily available. where there is high divine positivity, the negativity (illusion) is always attracted and wants to divert -- but the opposite is true, too, when there is high negativity, the high divine is always attracted.
also -- although it's great that there are women leaders in the world, this is functioning on the surface level.
what I see is more and more female avataras coming into being -- great top saints like Mother Meera, Ammachi, and others, who are embodying different aspects of the Mother Divine's energy and bringing it into the world in a tangible way.
it's also worth mentioning that the divine forms of the Mother, including Maha Kali, are also more accessible in this world at this time. seeing Her face to face, eyes open, conversing with Her directly and receiving something from Her hand -- it is coming, on a large scale, in this planet, just at a time when the material world seems to be driving itself over a cliff.
finally -- Maha Kali means: Nature. all of Nature IS Maha Kali. all the divinity, all the bijaksharas (seed mantras) are Her.
when we see tsunamis, earthquakes, floods, fires, etc., -- that is Kali purifying the planet, in direct response and reaction to the actions of the human beings and the karmas (actions-to-reactions) that we've accumulated over milllenniae of greed and material attachment, egoism, selfishness and crazy behavior.
seeing Nature means seeing the Mother there. paying attention to what She's doing, and how She's doing it, becomes quite interesting in this whole context.
Alx -
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Unsu...
Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Thu, March 27, 2008 - 9:02 PMWhen Sati jumped into the fire, she gave birth to Kali. It was sort of a rebirth from she who was a subservient wife to she who simply doesn't take shit. Parvati was also born of this event, who may in fact be non-different from Kali, but in any case, she has a healthier relationship with Shiva than before the big fire. -
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Thu, March 27, 2008 - 9:28 PM...or any number of Puranic tales.
I think it is less profitable to ask about the mythic origin of a description of the primordial Power of simultaneous Immanent and Transcendent Reality than to develop one's relationship (and ultimately, Self-recognition) with that Power.
don't get me wrong, I love the Puranas - but you will never get a "correct" answer in terms of the mythic origin of a representation of Reality because they tend to conflict. if that is really the question you wish to have answered, find the one that speaks the truth to you, and where it leads you. really, it's like an interpretation of the standard icon of Ma - you can take it more than one way, and eventually you'll get where you're going in any case, but which one is more profitable to your self development? as a moral "check" of unbridled female power by Siva (as many exoteric observers would have it, as much as I may disagree), or as a display of complentary forces which are inseperable? the same goes for origin or manifestation myths. no one Puranic event occured, or conversely, all of them did. there is no "right" answer. there is only the one which you need for your spiritual development at this moment in your growth as a self-limited fragment of a unified Whole with which you will conciously return (although you have never been gone) sooner or later. -
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Unsu...
Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Fri, March 28, 2008 - 11:50 AMOr yet if these stories are really true and did happen at the times the gods have incarnated, there may be very deep meaning in the stories, as well as a route to understanding these personalities. If you know about someone, you can understand or relate to them. When you can relate to the gods, you can meet them, and if you meet and understand, you can love them.
Also we must realize that these characters have so many incarnations over the milleniums, and what's true in one incarnation may not be true in another. Still they are beyond our mundane reality, so anything they do has unfathomable depth to it and should not be taken as ordinary.
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Fri, March 28, 2008 - 12:38 PMhey, Saul --
calling those accounts myths is a little interesting. to me, they're mechanisms being described in story form. it's a kind of code. as they say in India, "it HAPPENED!"
divine souls, certain avataras who are super-connected to Kali and talk with Her daily, know how it came about and when they speak of Her origin, they invoke those similar stories.
Alx -
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Fri, March 28, 2008 - 1:00 PM>>they're mechanisms being described in story form. it's a kind of code.
my point exactly. now the question is, which mechanism works for what a person is shooting for? calling a story a myth doesn't invalidate it's meaning; but it does avoid a hyperliteral reading of Puranic literature. if you are looking at these stories from a linear perspective, since all of them are conflicting, only one could be correct; but this is not how I see it. the different stories have different lessons to be learned, and if one accepts cyclical time and an absolute infinite Reality, all that can occur has occured, is occuring and will occur in the future, so they are all correct. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Fri, March 28, 2008 - 4:15 PM"so they are all correct"
1. well, some mechanisms are more correct than others.....
2. as the Celts say, 'they are and they aren't.'
*grinning*
Alx -
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Unsu...
Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Fri, March 28, 2008 - 6:17 PMKala specifically means "time". Kali is the cause of time, although she herself is beyond time, but still since she created time, she also comes to experience time, and when she does, it is called an incarnation. However I will admit that her stories cannot always be interpretted literally according to time. Yet the stories are meant for us to understand, and we cannot comprehend timelessness. They are told in a time-oriented fashion, so therefore, we can understand something of her nature by reading them. At the same time, a perfectly enlightened beiing can hold a lamp to the texts and unveil a whole new world. It's all right there, but our eyes are covered by darkness. -
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Fri, March 28, 2008 - 10:20 PMhi, Brenda --
kala does mean time. it also means 'poison' and in some South Indian languages, 'cobra'. time's a poison that no one gets to avoid or defang.
Kali -- as far as I know -- didn't 'create time' -- She's a kind of antidote to its ravages.
btw, I do think we can comprehend timelessness -- from the inside.
Alx
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Fri, March 28, 2008 - 9:08 PMVery interesting. -
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Unsu...
Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Sat, March 29, 2008 - 9:19 AMTo be honest I'm confused about Kali Ma tattva, and this thread is only adding more questions to the list. I came off as if I know about her, but in reality, I know so little. who am I to say that Kali Ma came from Sati. It may be the other way around. The original Kali Ma is infinite, the mother of all, so therefore, she has expansions. -
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Sun, March 30, 2008 - 10:41 PMOm Shanti
The Mother knows whats best and when by a peep into the heart of her child.
The Maa responds to the tears and fears of her beloved children ...thats what all the puranas point to.
Ultimately it points to a Universal phenomenon , the incredible relationship between a Mother and her children.
Om Shanti
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 1:14 AM> The original Kali Ma is infinite, the mother of all
*****
We're talking about two Kalis. One is the mythological creation, those stories and iconography that anthropomorphize Ma and give us someone to believe in, and one is the entire Universe in all its radical realities. We can use the mythology to provide a window through which this Universe shines, but that doesn't mean we have to believe the myths literally. That turns it into a kind of spiritual infantilism. A tragic tradition, in my opinion. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 11:06 AMand both co-exist at the same time.
yes, the relationship of child to mother is really disgusting, is it not? helpless infants basking in the maternal love who otherwise wouldn't survive at all, were it not for the mother's care....
*rolling my eyes*
Alx
ps that was irony, in case you wondered. -
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 11:09 AMmost convincing and logical explanation!! -
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Unsu...
Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 1:44 PMThere is a mother who is not our real mother, and she has imprisioned us in the material world. I am not this body, yet I am always suffering in the shackles of the threefold miseries. She is only a perverted reflection of the true mother of souls, and we have become enamoured with her and convinced that she is our mother, the illusory energy, Maya.
Our true mother, Yoga Maya, does not offer physical lust and ensnare us into traps, no never. She is literally the creator of the spiritual world (not the heavenly planets but the transcendental world where there is never death and rebirth). She sometimes covers the knowlege of her children so that they can enact divine dramas, but she does not cover them with gross material matter. She is compassionate and always wants her children to come home.
What I said about Kali Ma originating from Sati during the fire sacrifice, it was something I read on the internet, but I'm not sure about the authenticity of the source. Which goddess is Kali Ma, I can't really say, whether she is Mahamaya or Yogamaya. But we can rest assurred that Mahamaya is only a partial manifestation of Yogamaya, and she has no power over anyone who truly develops love and affection for their spiritual mother. -
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 4:36 PM> I can't really say, whether she is Mahamaya or Yogamaya.
*****
She is EVERYTHING. You can break down the entire collection of all planes of existence to two things only: the devotee and Ma. Everything is Ma to a shakta in the tradition of Ramakrishna, for what that's worth to anyone.
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 5:17 PMto imply that we are devottee's of Ma is to confer dualism where none exits,
though I know for clarity I also have gotten into this trap of words... ah the profanity of putting things into words...
we are Ma!
Jai Ma! -
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 10:50 PM> we are Ma!
*****
Materially, and as individual creations of time, i.e., our limited selves, this is true. But in terms of the source of our awareness, we are pure Shiva.
The dualism you reject is inherent in any discussion. Look at a Kali murti. It is a dualism as well. Ma stands on Shiva. The Universe stands on Brahman. That doesn't mean they are separate, but it suggests that considering these aspects as two sides of the same coin can be a helpful distinction. Brahman and Shakti, fire and it's heat, water and its wetness, etc. -
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 11:47 PMso what would you call the coin in it's entirety? -
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 12:55 AM> so what would you call the coin in it's entirety?
*****
I'd call it the universe. Brahman and Shakti are like fire and its power to burn, but when you think of fire, you don't think of its power to burn separately. The power to burn is entailed in the term 'fire.' Just the same, Brahman is entailed when there is any being, including the being of an entire universe. -
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 2:23 AMI like calling it Reality, because I believe that the universe we inhabit is just one of an infinite number.
I think that the nondual Reality is beyond what is commonly referred to as Shiva or Shakti; it's both of them. even the Shaivas I like, despite calling the Reality Shiva, view what is commonly concieved of as Shiva to be of a lower, still divided nature - Shakti and then Shiva are the 35th and 36th (the highest two) tattvas but Paramashiva is the Reality which encompasses them both. at that stage, I don't think that it matters whether you call it Shiva or Shakti; it's a matter of preference because ultimately any limited description of It will fail to convey It's undivided nature. so I'll say Paramashiva, Adishakti, Kali, Ma, Reality, or whatever seems appropriate in the context, really. but I use the word "universe" in a restricted sense to distinguish the material unfoldment of this world from the underlying Reality which allows it to exist in the first place. of all of the Muslim names for God, the one I like best is al-Haqq, which can be read as "the Truth" or "the Reality"... of course, the Sufis I like are often thought of as heretical, and Mansur al-Hallaj was killed in 922 for saying "Ana al-Haqq" or, "I am the Truth [Reality, or God]"... a much more nondualist interpretation of Islam than you normally hear :)
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 12:20 PMjody >>>"Materially, and as individual creations of time, i.e., our limited selves, this is true. But in terms of the source of our awareness, we are pure Shiva.
The dualism you reject is inherent in any discussion. Look at a Kali murti. It is a dualism as well. Ma stands on Shiva. The Universe stands on Brahman. That doesn't mean they are separate, but it suggests that considering these aspects as two sides of the same coin can be a helpful distinction. Brahman and Shakti, fire and it's heat, water and its wetness, etc."
---
I'm afraid I don't agree with you in the least... if you identified as Shaivite then Shiva would be your ultimate Absolute...Shiva would equal Brahman ... I have no problems with that at all, if that is how you choose to see Godhead, then it is *your* Reality.
but let's at least speak the truth and *know* exactly what we are saying.
I am a Shakta in every pulsating fiber of my being...
She is everything and nothing ~ She is Shiva and the reason Shiva came into being, She is his power, She is his bliss, She is the Absolute... She is the female, the male, the neuter and everything inbetween, She is all forms and why they came into being, and the primordial formlessness without birth or beginning ... Shiva and Shakti are never separate even for a moment, if this were so the universe would dissolve and cease to be...
but like I said, believe what you like, but that is not traditional Shaktism.
Jai Maa!
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 6:19 PM>>she has imprisioned us in the material world. I am not this body, yet I am always suffering in the shackles of the threefold miseries. She is only a perverted reflection of the true mother of souls, and we have become enamoured with her and convinced that she is our mother, the illusory energy, Maya.
IMHO this is an unhealthy way of looking at Reality. total acceptance of all things, including the "shackles" of incarnated existence, is a more holistic approach. nothing is impure, or bad, or even perverted. a perversion implies something going contrary to the will of the Mother, which is impossible - if it were otherwise, there would have to be restrictions imposed upon Reality, which would make Reality something other than and above Ma, which is not the case; any limitations are self imposed and thus cannot run counter to Her will.
>>she does not cover them with gross material matter. She is compassionate and always wants her children to come home.
again, I have to disagree. if it is not Ma who imposes the coverings of matter, it is something above and beyond Ma, of which there is nothing. to argue otherwise at best implies a dualist war of opposed principles, which runs contrary to the spirit of Shakta monistic cosmology.
>>What I said about Kali Ma originating from Sati during the fire sacrifice, it was something I read on the internet, but I'm not sure about the authenticity of the source.
it's one of many tales from the Puranas.
>>Which goddess is Kali Ma, I can't really say, whether she is Mahamaya or Yogamaya.
She is over and above all limited and restricted Shaktis - so while She IS in a sense all of the lesser manifestations of Power, She holds all of them within Herself.
>>But we can rest assurred that Mahamaya is only a partial manifestation of Yogamaya, and she has no power over anyone who truly develops love and affection for their spiritual mother.
everything is a partial manifestation of Ma, but being that we act as limited individuals, we are still subject to Maya, for better or worse. personally, I see it as a blessing. our experiences of life are a series of lessons to be learned from, not tragedies to retreat from. I am blessed by all of this, even that which may be hard or uncomfortable. Jai Ma! -
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 9:10 AMa great and short read on the distinction of purity/non purity www.kashmirshaivism.org/abhina...le.html
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 8:16 PMhi, Brenda et al --
well, Jody's got this one covered, She's everything.
She is both pure loving mother and Mahamaya, at the same time. 50% of the Mother's nature is the high divine perfect loving mother. 50% is pure illusion. just like each of us, more or less.
the challenge is this -- how to change her nature!?
Alx
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 4:34 PM> the relationship of child to mother is really disgustin
*****
The Mother/child relationship requires nothing in the way of a literal belief in what are nothing more than childish myths, regardless of the allegories that get attached to them. -
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Unsu...
Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 11:19 AMShe is simultaneously different and non-different from her creation. Divine Mother is formless and eternal, and She also has at least one eternal form. I do not know about all her name preferences, but she is Shakti, the eternal power that creates not only the spiritual world, but the material world also emanates from her expansive energies.
Mahamaya is Sakti too, and she is also an aspect of Divine Sakti, and in fact she is totally dependent on Yogamaya to do anything. Yogamaya acts through Mahamaya, for they are different and nondifferent simultaneously. The Vedas refer to this concept as acintya bheda-abheda truth. Mahamaya is a shadow aspect of the Mother of All things spiritual and material. In fact, spiritual and material are simultaneously the same and different, and that's a fact.
The philosophy that the material world is divine is the highest truth sounds wonderful in theory. Why not just believe it, we don't know anything different. In fact, Mahamaya has been propagating this theory for eons, and it's her job to do so. The truth does not come cheap, which is to the benefit of our evolution in consciousness. To realize the fact that we are covered in the shadow aspect of Kali's true divine eternal nature, one would have to understand the Vedas. To understand the Vedas, one would have to be enlightened. Otherwise, even the Vedas are covered by a dark shroud. An omniscient being can not only realize the deep esoteric value of the scriptures but can also uncover truths in them to others, which under scrutiny cannot be defeated by anyone in any debate, and even the most learned scholars cannot deny the truth when presented with it.
The whole of the Vedas has two simultaneous meanings, one of shadow nature and one of eternity. It's part of a divine plan by trancendental-Kali, also known as Bali. She will serve you herself if your every action is for the good of all, for her energies are unlimited, and technically, we could all live like kings. But if you are desiring to serve your own ego, she will make you pay your own way like we have to in this world. Mahamaya aspect is very wonderful, but serving her will not put an end to your cycle of birth and death. She will unleash the 64 diseases upon you, and now you are bound to get old and die. Everything she creates in this world is temporary. It's not because our Divine Mother doesn't love us. She is most compassionate to make us evolve toward perfection, keeping her transcendental kingdom free from all forms of selfish behavior. It is here too, but the transcendental world is veiled to the eyes of the blind, which unfortunately, we are.
Acintya bheda-abheda truth also maintains that Shakti is simultaneously different and non-different from her eternal consort Shiva, as one is raw power, and the other is powerful. It doesn't matter which one is more important, both are mutually interdependent, due to the intense love between them. -
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 4:05 PMyour arguments sound confused. is this what you believe or did are you copying and pasting? also, are you responding to anything or just typing this out to whomever?
I don't mean to be a jerk, but it is hard to find a coherent thread to address in these postings. what perspective are you coming from, or are these even your own thoughts? I cannot seem to make out which is the case. -
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Unsu...
Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 5:41 PMThese are the opions of sastra. Kali Ma is Divine Mother, not the mundane material energy. However, she is controller of material energy.
My opinion is that the material energy has made a personality ofi it's own, which is to me the government. Also, because we believe in and associate with illusory energy, we are contributing to the government. What government? It's the government we all support, each government that has a king other that Shakti or Shiva. Are there demons who have control of us? In our minds only can they control us, so yes. Is Kali Ma one of them? No, she is not, but we do not understand her. She only shows us her mask, which is Mahamaya, a grand illusion.
Yes I have learned Sastras from various eternal Gurus, much of which I still don't understand, but they have given me a certain amount of faith in basic principles. Are false informations being spread to the masses? Yes, it is the superplay of the divine to test us. I want to say more on this but don't want to get long winded. -
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Unsu...
Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 6:05 PMFor instance, when people looked upon Sita, some saw her illussory energy, which is sometimes referred to as her red dress. What you see is according to your own desire. Some saw only her body image and they were attracted to that. To others she revealed her true spiritual identity. Mohini Murti gave the nectar to the demigods. The demons lusted after her flesh, and I believe they got something out of that, but they didn't even know they were denied the nectar.
Sastras are urging us to rise above, all throughout. The transcendental world is right here, but we are definitely not seeing it. We are eternal.
We shouldn't think that we will not meet our creator Sakti and Siva. What we bring to the table will be reflected back at us. That's all I'm saying. -
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Re: What is the cuase of manifestation of Maa Kali?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 10:32 PM
not to put too fine a point on it, but Mohini was Vishnu. there's a whole other mechanism running under the illusion of Vishnu turning female. distracting the demons was the least of it.
the interesting part is that we meet the creator -- in disguise -- every day, in the natural world. Shiva & Shakti are the natural as well as the supernatural. you can't say, they're only in form, or they're only formless.
Alx
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